> Ferrari-McLaren Spy scandal

yeah right...

If I'm the chief designer of a HUGE team and in possesion of design secrets of a rival team, I'm gonna use it for my own benefit. If I put into use any of those secrets or workarounds garnered from those 700 pages of technical documents, its entirely private and McLaren has got nothing to do with it. What will I use that for? Obviously, to increase the speed of that Porche road car that I own?

Agreed Coughlan is the main culprit but don gimme this $hit that he has done all these entirely on his own with no backing from his seniors. McLaren is a HUGE team and they have planned contingencies. If they get through unscathed, they're the winner as a TEAM! If they get caught, its poor Mr. Coughlan who's responsible as an INDIVIDUAL.

total bs if you ask me, if they can openly say for sure that mclaren had the info and still dismiss the case for lack of evidence

plus i think they mentioned somewhere that even higher ups such as norbert haug had access to the documents and they say it was not used by mclaren

guess they had the season in mind and didnt want to spoil the results. and guess ferrari will be furious that a chance to get the championship with no effort has slipped past heh

edit: plus anyway no use being surprised this kinda thing has happened before with renault ferrari etc and unless there is damning evidence things are usually brushed under the carpet

lol...found this quote on f1-live

"Imagine you have had your car stolen and then it is found in the garden of a man who lives near you. You inform the police and they verify the theft. But because the thief shows that he hasn't used the car, he's cleared of any crime. That is exactly what happened to Ferrari."

^

Well in all fairness to the Mclaren team, even if they did have that extra knowledge, it is almost impossible to prove that they had in fact actually used the knowledge Because a part that may work well in the ferrari car may or may not work well on the McMerc and even if it did work well, it would've sufficiently been modified to work with the car(if the parts did work well like a plug and play system, the car would be have been an exact replica of the ferrari).

So eventually its a vicious circle, and it just can't be proved that McMerc were guilty, so long as Coughlan doesn't rat out more names.

And on a side note these sort of things are part of F1, 50% of the research is done in-house, and the other 50% from copying other teams, same reason why most cars look the same, and eventually they imbibe the same break through in the tech. made by other teams, it started with the carbon fibre chassis, under body wings, turbo chargers, and more recently the zero keel suspensions, etc. So my point is, to stay ahead in F1 you gotta copy the other team!!

Ferrari ponders further action in spy case

Ferrari is considering appealing against the FIA’s decision not to impose a penalty on McLaren in the spying case.

The World Motor Sport Council ruled last Thursday that McLaren had contravened article 151c of Formula 1’s sporting code because its chief designer Mike Coughlan possessed confidential Ferrari technical documents.

But it deemed there was “insufficient evidence” that the team had used or benefited from the information to warrant any kind of penalty.

Ferrari was deeply aggrieved at the verdict, describing it as “incomprehensible” that McLaren could be found guilty as charged and yet escape without sanction.

Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo has warned that “the story will not end here” and, in a lengthy response published on the team’s website, CEO Jean Todt said the team “does not rule out” further action in addition to the ongoing legal cases against Nigel Stepney and Mike Coughlan in Italy and England.

“This decision remains very disappointing and surprising,” Todt said.

“It is not acceptable to create a precedent in such an important case in which the guilty verdict for serious and persistent violation of the fundamental principle of sporting honesty does not automatically incur a penalty.

“For our part, we will press on with the legal actions currently taking place in Italy and in England, and we do not rule out taking further action.”

Todt said the fact McLaren that questioned Ferrari’s compliance with the bodywork regulations at the start of the season and called for a clarification of the rules was attributable to inside knowledge of his team’s designs.

And he claimed the more stringent bodywork deflection tests subsequently introduced – which were believed to hurt Ferrari more than other teams – showed that McLaren had gained an advantage even if it had not incorporated Ferrari designs on its own car.

“During [the WMSC] meeting, the McLaren bosses, with no exceptions, admitted that their chief designer had obtained since back in March, prior to the Australian GP, documents from Nigel Stepney,” said Todt.

“Some of this data was used to prepare a clarification request submitted to the FIA, aimed clearly at us, given that throughout the Melbourne weekend, the McLaren team principal and his closest colleagues made statements in which they threw doubt over ‘some cars’.

“Therefore, such information was in fact used to obtain an advantage over us: not through an improvement in their performance, but instead through limiting ours.

“It is important to underline that the information used to try and damage Ferrari through the FIA might be only a part of the information received by McLaren.”

Todt argued that possession of leaked information was sufficient grounds for a penalty, and said it was unreasonable for the burden of proof to lie with Ferrari.

“As confirmed in that decision yesterday, the violation was already there in the simple possession of the information, which in itself constitutes an enormous advantage in a sport like Formula 1,” he said.

“In Ferrari’s opinion, it is like playing a hand of poker with a rival who already knows what cards you are holding.

“It remains incomprehensible that apart from possession, one must also demonstrate the effective and visible use of this information on the McLaren car.

“Actually, this very same fact, on the basis of available information which the FIA used to find McLaren guilty, shows that the offence lies in the possession without the need to prove anything else.

“The proof is there and this led to the FIA’s decision. Therefore I find it difficult to understand how the verdict makes sense.

“Furthermore, I have to say that the proof of effective use requested by the FIA is impossible for Ferrari to furnish, because of course, Ferrari does not have access to the McLaren car.”

Todt accused McLaren boss Ron Dennis of reneging on an understanding they had reached to establish a better working relationship between the two arch-rival teams.

“A few weeks after the race in Melbourne, the McLaren team principal proposed that we should reach a sort of agreement to establish a better relationship between our two teams, thus avoiding any future denunciations to the sporting authority,” Todt said.

“I replied that I found it impossible to believe him, because on several occasions we had seen that certain commitments had always been disregarded by McLaren.

“There was an exchange of views and, believing in their good faith, I agreed to sign this agreement on 9th June last.

“Since that time and even earlier, McLaren was perfectly aware, not only of the emails sent by their informer within our company, but also of the fact that their chief designer had stayed in contact with him and had received and continued to be in possession of a significant amount of technical information that belonged to us.

“So, on the one hand, they had come to say ‘let us trust one another’, and on the other they were hiding serious facts such as those just stated above, but making no effort to inform us as would have been in the spirit and to the letter of our agreement.”

When they have found the evidence that Mclaren had the sensitive information belonging to Ferrari then why the hell did FIA over look it?

^^ because the documents were in possession of a rogue element of the team, and there is no way they can be indicted unless they prove that the team had prior knowledge of this, and didn't take necessary action then, or if they're able prove that the team had consequently used the information gathered into the cars development.

Neither of which is possible to prove, hence, FIA found them innocent of all charges.

FIA found them guilty....but just decided not to punish them.

'Spygate' verdict goes to appeal court
The FIA has referred the verdict of the McLaren and Ferrari spying case to its Court of Appeal following a request by the Italian motorsport commission (CSAI).

McLaren was last week found guilty by The World Motor Sport Council of possessing confidential Ferrari technical documents after they were found at its chief designer Mike Coughlan’s home.

But it deemed there was “insufficient evidence” that the team had used or benefited from the information to warrant any kind of penalty.

Ferrari boss Jean Todt had already expressed his fury at the decision, before on Monday CSAI president Liugi Macaluso wrote to FIA president Max Mosley expressing his dissatisfaction with the verdict and urging the governing body to submit the matter to the court of appeal so to give Ferrari a chance to explain its full case.

In Mosley’s reply, he said the matter would be referred to the FIA court, particularly due to the "the importance of public confidence in the outcome".

He added that Ferrari, McLaren and any other team that wished would be allowed to state their positions in the appeal hearing.

“Your letter [Macaluso’s] suggests that the outcome may have been different if the Council had given Ferrari further opportunities to be heard beyond those that were in fact offered,” Mosley wrote.

“Because of this and the importance of public confidence in the outcome, I will send this matter to the FIA Court of Appeal under Article 23.1 of the FIA Statutes with a request that the Court hear both Ferrari and McLaren and any other Championship competitor who so requests and determine whether the decision of the WMSC was appropriate and, if not, substitute such other decision as may be just.”

The WMSC’s decision not to impose a penalty on McLaren was greeted with disgust by Ferrari, with the Italian squad saying it was “incomprehensible” that despite being found guilty, the British team was not hit with a penalty.

Ferrari then published a further lengthy response to the verdict on its website in which Todt said that in addition to pressing on with legal action against its former engineer Nigel Stepney and Coughlan in Italy and England, the team “do not rule out taking further action.”

McLaren boss Ron Dennis welcomed the WMSC’s decision not to punish his team, but admitted he was not totally comfortable with the verdict.

"[McLaren is] not entirely happy with the outcome of the hearing, but the punishment fits the crime," he said.