Simulated Reality - The ShoutBox Debate

Simulated reality is the proposition that reality could be simulated — often computer simulated — to a degree indistinguishable from 'true' reality. It could contain conscious minds which may or may not know that they are living inside a simulation. In its strongest form, the "simulation hypothesis" claims we actually are living in such a simulation.

This is different from the current, technologically achievable concept of virtual reality. Virtual reality is easily distinguished from the experience of 'true' reality; participants are never in doubt about the nature of what they experience. Simulated reality, by contrast, would be hard or impossible to distinguish from 'true' reality.

The idea of a simulated reality raises several questions:

Is it possible, even in principle, to tell whether we are in a simulated reality?
Is there any difference between a simulated reality and a 'real' one?
How should we behave if we know that we were living in a simulated reality?

Safin:
there is one basic flaw in whole of simulated reality concept though


Yamaraj:
I'm all ears!


Safin:
that point after i answer the phone


Safin:
am back


Safin:
ok so where was i


heathcliff:
That basic flaw!!


Safin:
yes, so lets start with the concept of simulated relaity as was presented


Safin:
i begin my arguments by citing the basic law of thermodynamics



Safin:
the second law states that there is no 100% efficient process(you can call it entropy is always increasing)


Safin:
yama you fool


Safin:
you are more worried about HC rather than this important argument that can well decide whether you are a you or some programmers figment of imagination


Yamaraj:




Yamaraj:
Then according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, this world isn't perfect either.


Yamaraj:
And not the truth apparantly.


Safin:
you never let me complete it


Yamaraj:
How much time do you need?


Safin:
i think it might take years but lets say30 mins hehe


Yamaraj:
Ok! Meanwhile I'll look out for HC.


Safin:
lets come to the basic idea. Lets say we accept the proposition that this is a simulation


Yamaraj:
Hmm!


Safin:
ok so basically what we have to envision is two processes


Safin:
one is which has already been programmed, we are a simulation of the known


Safin:
the other is a active simulation, which is changing as per the situations


Safin:
if it were to be the latter case, there is a big problem. One we are thinking of actually a processing capability thats able to control a universe which is in itself infinite


Safin:
based on a the concepts of 3d space, we can think of conical analysis by bring time equation but even then the fact is that you are doing an open end simulation


Safin:
a simulation of whatever form is using energy. You are automatically putting a open end to it which implies all pervasive energy, an unending energy which has to be infinite.


Safin:
or ofcourse a perfect simulation which reutilizes the energy which then caps existing simulations to known boundaries


Safin:
but then the basic premise of the universe is its exansiveness. so you are not looking at something thats bound.


Safin:
so thats one of the arguments that i cannot find the answer to in the concept of a simulation


Safin:
is anyone with me


heathcliff:
I am


Yamaraj:
I'm busy stitching your broken pieces back together,


Safin:
what broken


Yamaraj:
Your argument is entirely logical, but an old one. That the world containing a machine running this simulation must at least be aa complex as the simulation itself. And the complexity therefore goes exponential every time. Right?


Safin:
partly, i am more interested in the energy aspects of such a simulation


heathcliff:
See you later.



Yamaraj:
And what if our gods have found an infinite source of energy?


Yamaraj:
HC, coming back?


heathcliff:
Not sure!!


Safin:
well that way everything is possible


Safin:
infinite is a very very dangerous term to throw around


Safin:
infinite energy source is akin to god itself, then ofcourse you can say we are after all believers in god anyway


Yamaraj:
But the Universe IS infinite, until and unless proven otherwise, which is very unlikely.


Yamaraj:
HC, I'll have to disturb you then.


Safin:
I prefer theories based on some scientific soundness. Infinitism is not scientifically sound. There cannot be anything thats infinite as then it would be all pervasive. if its right next to you, then it has to be you also(use m to m+1 analogy


Yamaraj:
Science is limited by its own faulty premises - that everything must be testable. But there are many thing beyong our line of perception and/or imagination. Those don't exist in a scientific dictionary, but that doesn't prove they aren't there.


Safin:
but the concept of simulation my dear has to arise from the known things of science


Safin:
there are even bigger issues. A simulation won't ever leave open endedness. If we are to believe this is a simulation, then you are leaving a universe thats infinite which inturn encompasses the simulator too.


Yamaraj:
If the Universe is a closed model of energy, then a big-bang must have taken place only after a big-collapse or crunch. And what lies outside the Universe then? Crude extensions to real maps, as evident in some computer games?


Safin:
but the basic ideas is that the simulated beings should not be able to reach a level where they can actually simulate


Yamaraj:
"Should not" is too 10-commandment'ish.


Safin:
what you are stating is true. The anwer to that has been debated. Its that famous concept, you cannot expereience true relativism from within the environment. It will always be distorted. in a 2d environment a 3rd dimension has no meaning


Safin:
ok so if thats the case, the simulator shoiuld be able to rach a stage to carry out own simulations which can then become an unending activity coming back to the question of infinitism of processes(energy, resources)


Yamaraj:
We are already running simulated systems that are taking control of the real ones. What if the simulated world is somehow connected with the real one, and even provides benefits such as energy et al?


Yamaraj:
That's it! Infinity the problem, or should I say solution, here.


Safin:
whenyou talk of infinity then you talk not of simulations, you talk of unknowns. Thats why we invented god and religion.


Yamaraj:
I must recommend the movie "The Thirteenth Floor" to you. It makes use of the same infinite-simulations.


Yamaraj:
But when we talk about quantum mechanics, it's more about may or may not, could or couldn't and might or might not. Science breaks down after a certain point.


Safin:
well thats all the more reason for there being no perfection, which a simulated reality assumes


Safin:
even better, a simulator can itself be under a simulation. in the concept of god thats not true (which takes care of the singularity of infinitism) a simulated reality fails at that singularity


Yamaraj:
Simulation may be a reality. I'm not sure if it really is! But we shouldn't entirely rule out the possibilities.


Yamaraj:
Wow! My first sentence in the last post is a classis oxymoronic quote!


Safin:



Yamaraj:
Check out Nick Bostrom's arguments. I'll list them for your ease, here.


Yamaraj:
(1) the human species is very likely to go extinct before reaching a “posthuman” stage; (2) any posthuman civilization is extremely unlikely to run a significant number of simulations of their evolutionary history (or variations thereof); (3) we are almost certainly living in a computer simulation.


Safin:
i read them


Yamaraj:
And disagree with him?


Safin:
they didn't discuss my points


Safin:
2 indian doc students shot dead in us


Yamaraj:
He is a philosopher, not a cosmologist.


Yamaraj:
But science relies too heavily on subjectivism to be perfect. What we see, perceive or feel isn't the whole shebang - definitely not the perfect and complete image of things, let alone the entire Universe.


Safin:
There might be one flaw in what i said, which atm looks impossible. That the concept of inifinitism is a limitation of human intelligence


Safin:
of appreciating what we see around us. It can also be the old problem of not being able to see the actuality when you are inside it


Safin:
cos one of the problems with exising theories is that something has to give, cos even now we have an infinitism of the universe. (appreciating big bang and the probability of the future contractions leading to the basic mass that represented or led to the big bang, there is still something beyond it


Safin:
the present hypothesis ignores that possiility using the pretext of time.


Yamaraj:
There is a lot of on-going debate on the possibility of the existence of time before the big-bang. But time is change, and it cannot exist without matter or energy. Can it?


Yamaraj:
Safin, scanning through pages in your library?


Safin:
yama yes, am doing some reading. I can't find my answers to the infinity puzzle


Yamaraj:
Good! Let me know if you find something interesting.


Safin:
link


Yamaraj:
I'm on it!


Yamaraj:
A very good introductory text by an undergrad skeptic pholosopher.


Safin:
this is a fascinating subject, i think we should compile and post this conve on the forums, maybe some other guys can throw some light, too good to be lost in Sb (i mean out simulators won't like it )


Safin:
how would you define yourself yama


Yamaraj:
I have many such links and articles saved on my disks, as opposed to the usual material saved by others. Will try and post some good stuff from time to time.


Yamaraj:
It's not easy to define "self", Safin. And the world is too complex still. I have spent some time reading philosophy and metaphysics. And IMO, the fundamental problem is our consciousness itself.


Safin:
you better start posting on forums dude, i love such topics


Yamaraj:
Others don't!


Safin:
lol ok, i am pretty sure about my position.


Yamaraj:
I'll get -ve reps.


Safin:
to heck with others


Safin:
ok i am guessing KK will like it also, so you have us two atleast hehe


Private Ryan:
looks like safin sir has missed our long discussion on the same topic in the ask a question, have u ever and what if threads..


Safin:
err which discusssion?


Yamaraj:
I'm sure even Descartes was confused when he wrote down that famous line: Cogito, ergo sum! (I think, therefore I am). What's your take on the subject?


Private Ryan:
rite yam?


Yamaraj:
We only touched the feathers there, Ryan!


Safin:
i am pretty sure you can't have gone into so much depth as we have done today


Private Ryan:
Arreh sirji, just check the threads listed here in the TP section...HC and xXx are all pareshaan with our discussions there..


Yamaraj:
I have a strong desire to caress and get a strong hold on reality, if there is such a think as it is.


Safin:
although we haven't concluded or arrived at anything but some more questions and dimensions as yet unexplored


Sandeep:



Private Ryan:
yeh lo..isi ki kamee thi..


Yamaraj:
link


Safin:
yama i have read that


Private Ryan:
Lol, sardaar, i suggest you save this discussion b4 its lost like a photon in the endless universe...


Private Ryan:
i hope u have watched 2001 a space odyssey?


Safin:
there was an interesting quote on sciam i read, finding the link


Yamaraj:
Good Safin! Seems you're really deep into "Who am I" stuff now?


Safin:
scian is the best place for this, i was actually planning to ask the resident scientists what there opinion is on the topic


Yamaraj:
Most interesting SciAm links are usually reserved for the paid ones.


Safin:
sciam not scian



Yamaraj:
Have you read any of Roger Penrose's texts on consciousness? It's really interesting how a die-hard mathematician suddenly became interesting in the human mind and consciousness.




Safin:
no yama i am not that much into philosophy



Private Ryan:
i really am of the view tht this world is pretty much a simulation created by an advanced life form and the universe is just an extension of tht simulation...i dont trust my senses...theres a world beyond that..


Private Ryan:
i dont really believe in the concept of infinity..


Safin:
hmmm so you are a firm believer in agen smith


Private Ryan:
i am already seeing an example here..


Yamaraj:
Many believe that our Universe is actually a Schwarzschild blackhole. Could this be possible that ours is actually one of many (or infinite, if you are inclined enough) blackholes in a superior universe - which is also a blackhole in another ...ad infinitum?


Yamaraj:
Safin, accept that you found The Matrix somewhat interesting, at the very least.


Safin:
yama thats actually a quite plausible


Sandeep:
why not allowing me more smilies?


Yamaraj:
Infinity is only absurd, not impossible.


Safin:
however i stick to the fact that that interpretation is based on the concept of the 3d space and our inability to isolate ourselves and look at the universe from outoside. so relativity effects our observations


Private Ryan:
the matrix may have been a commercial movie but the philosophy in it (not many sensed tht) was actually a look into the world tht we dont know or have no idea about... there cud be more truth in it than fiction..


Safin:
well i can give matrix credit only so far as that it was so atrocioous that i did some research to refute its baseless foolish claims


Sandeep:
u guys r crazy


Safin:
its proibably the worst 3rd grade movie ever.


Safin:



Yamaraj:
Ryan, actually many movies and books are proposed the same idea for a quite a long time. Apparantly no one paid any attention until this movie came up with its visual styles, light leather outfits, sleek moves, bullet-time effects and a wooden lead actor.


Sandeep:
Sab log apne ghar pe ho?


Yamaraj:
s/are/have


Safin:
no but seriously the ideas in matrix border on insanity, look at that machines using humans for warmth and human factory idea. I mena any sane person with even a bit of knowledge will reject that idea of ebnergy source


Private Ryan:
and our observations are only a reflection of our upbringing and whatever we have learned thru the years...physics as we know is pretty much a limited knowledge about the universe we know about..but beyond tht, there is a whole new universe waiting to be explored which do not obey the laws of physic


Sandeep:



Safin:
the basic philosopy of simulated reality is not something thats started with matrix, matrix made them absurd


Safin:
Ryan your explanation don't hold in simulated reality. Your observations either are pre-programmed or in case of a active simulation, they must be controlled to show you only the observations that the simulator wants to show.


Private Ryan:
and more commercial..


Yamaraj:
I have to agree that "turning a human into a Duracell" was absurd and stupid. But it was funny!


Safin:
you are basically talking of a pre-processor thats evaluating every living beings response and observations every infinitisimally small second


Yamaraj:
Safin, since we have no free will - only choices, you cannot rule out the possibility of a "created" universe and formulated laws of physics.


Safin:
and thats one of the basic points i see that has major flaw as the amount of processing power we are talkiing(based on sheer interactions) is so huge that the exponential energy requirement of the processor is just not possible in this universe


Yamaraj:
Fine-tuned universe - link


Sandeep:
had enough dose. Leavin.


Yamaraj:
Safin, energy requirements? I'd be more concerned about the size of heatsinks and the number of pentier coolers.


Safin:
yama your explanation has a serious flaw. A created uncontrolled universe is never possible. How can a simulation give the people inside it the power to actually find out about the simulation one day. They can actually stop the process. Its a paradox on line with the grandfather paradox


Private Ryan:
lol, no, all i am saying is tht the physics as we have learnt thru the years is pretty much limited and it doesnt try to accept new theories..everything is based on the concepts tht we have already known..but earth is not the centre of this universe


Safin:
yama i meant the same about energy. Even if the energy released is recycled to say power another energy source, you are still looking at a perfect machine that is unthinkable in a universe which obeys the law of entropy


Private Ryan:
and i dont like to believe tht the universe and the concept of time in universe obeys the laws as we know on earth...


Safin:
ryan, physics is a limited science. Atleast what we know. We are explaining the observations as we notice them. Our laws change as per time and discovery. Remmeber there is no unified theory on physics even now. we still have duality we still have singularities


Safin:
ok i think this needs to be on the forum


Safin:
am caching all this and posting on the forums too good a topic to be lost in SB hehe


Private Ryan:
not only physics, infact evn chemistry and biology are limited science...there are proly a million more elements out thr in the universe which are not found on earth and which do not comply with our periodic table of elements.. same goes for life forms...


Yamaraj:
Even if the simuated ones ever find the "truth", they'll be still be residing under infinite layers of simulations and virtualization. Lord's place is not in danger.


Safin:
yes, as in one article its written. its a matter of perspective. remember colours as we see them are also after all based on what colours of white light they absorb. Incase the light is non-white, they will have a totally different colour. So for any person perspective is important


Private Ryan:
it never will be, yam...


Safin:
yama i don't think so. You can actually kill the simulation and create the dreaded singularity where laws will fail again. What happens there is as good as what happens in blackholes or wormholes


Yamaraj:
Safin, your argument on energy is based on our current knowlegde and theories only. It's still subjective and based only on our perceptions of the "reality".


Private Ryan:
i think balck holes re nothing but a glitch in the simulation which is beyond the laws of accepted physics..


Yamaraj:
LEt's talk about Gravity for example. Scientists even came up with a fictional particle "Graviton" only to solve the mystery as to where Gravity comes from. Same goes for dark evergy, dark matter, blackhole concepts.


Safin:
well thats not saying it does not exist. we just can't unify all these theories together. There is no super set. Its the same with antimatter.


Private Ryan:
do you guys really believe tht thr exist such jump holes in the universe which can transport a man to anther time and space?


Yamaraj:
Mathematics and physics - along with all our calculations are only based on limited perceptions. Where are the rules of physics stores? In our minds? 'Cause I don't think a photon knows if it's travelling at 300,000kms in vacuum.


Yamaraj:
Ryan, it's only science fiction.


Private Ryan:
but thr is some logic behind it..yam...


Safin:
well ryan its not the question of believeing, it has to exist if the laws as we know them today exist. Its as simple as this. if speed of light is being exceeded then there has to be a motion in the past


Safin:
and the situation theoretically happens in a blackhole with the collapse


Private Ryan:
black holes may prolly be the best example of a jump hole..


Private Ryan:
or atleast close to the concept of it..


Yamaraj:
Besides, scientists argue that our Universe is constantly expanding - with some galaxies and constellations departing from each other at speeds vastly greater than that of the light. And that Universe "is all that there is". If it's really so, what hole is it expanding into?


Safin:
ok freeze the discussion, am caching it


Safin:
yama as i mentioned, it can be expanding say as you expand a sphere. It can all be coming back. spherically. so dimensions might be circular


Private Ryan:
the big bang seems like a myth to me.. i seriously dont belive tht the universe is expanding in infinite space...the infinitism is a myth..


Yamaraj:
Apparantly, the density of the Universe implies that it is flat. Talk about irony!


Safin:
i think thats the biggest traggedy. infinity is a dangerous word


Yamaraj:
Safin, but for a sphere or balloon to expand, there must be empty/free space around it. If Universe is be all and end all, what can it really expand into?


Private Ryan:
what happens in a supernova is pretty much a miniscule simulation of a big bang theory...even then the debris from the dying star stops floating or expanding into space after a time...


Safin:
yamaraj thats actually a problem of perspective. you think there is a free space as you imagine it in 3d. it need not be the case. Dimensionally it might be such where there is a spherical dimension only. where the true dimension would be only circular


Private Ryan:
so cud tht mean tht the celestial flying objects were actually the chunks of a massive dying mega star?


Safin:
err ryan are you sure about the stop floating part


Safin:
well it certainly is possible that universe is itself a part of a bigger system


Safin:
what is absolutele true is that there are other life forms out there


Private Ryan:
they form clouds around the nucleus after travelling a distane..isnt it?


Safin:
Atleast i am dead sure. the probability of non existence is remote actually. Out of so many possible candidates, there have to be quite a few that have the conditions for life


Yamaraj:
If the universe is expanding into higher dimensions, again the problem of infinite dimensions and infinite number of universes arises.


Yamaraj:
Safin, but we must first define what life really is!


Safin:
and that ofcourse gives credence to simulation theory as there is always that possibility that they are far more advanced than we are. Face it we can't even contemplate earth fter 100years. I am pretty sure people would have moved to mars, so even we would have started exploring


Yamaraj:
How many know that Jupiter is actually a failed tiny star?


Safin:
life yaam for me is either gods creation or a simulation


Private Ryan:
Safi sirji...life really doesnt follow any particular pattern...its not necesary tht life on some other planet may follow the model of evolution as seen on earth..


Safin:
ehh jupiter is an aggregation of debri, it burst to create more, (atleast i read that)


Yamaraj:
It's a star that flopped at the universal box-office. There is no solid surface so to speak of.


Safin:
ryan, if its carbobn based, it will follow. Yes the external features will differ(if they have two suns, it will be more underground kind(chronicles of rid**** anyone but the basic blocks will be same


Private Ryan:
infact life on earth itself has evolved so much tht its hard to recognise it the way it started..i read somewhr tht for the primitive organisms, oxygen was a poison...its only thru the ages tht life forms got adapted to the conditions here..


Safin:
ofcourse carbon may not be the only building block but looking at the poresence of helium, hydrogen in universe, it has to be carbon(atleast in our galaxy)


Yamaraj:
Life is just an organized mess of complex molecules that reacts to its environment on its own.


Private Ryan:
so it may not be necessary tht the life forms if any, on other planets may have to be dependent on carbon as its building block..thts the limitation of our thinking..


Safin:
definations have no meaning.


Yamaraj:
Our first father was a self-replicating chain of molecules.


Private Ryan:
thts food for thought actually..how did it all started..adam n even can go to hell..


Safin:
it all started chemically


Safin:
the imperfection, entropy


Safin:
molecules collided, didn't form helium


Yamaraj:
Safin, "definations" has a meaning, and that it's a spelling mistake.


Private Ryan:
so whr did God come into the picture..


Safin:
they formed some other molecule, mostly unstable, reacted more and we had more molecules


Safin:
god is a subjective term


Yamaraj:
Ryan, that's more about the human ego and psyche.


Private Ryan:
thr has to be some reason for those billions out thr who believe in the divine being?


Safin:
your god can be a advanced computer programmer eg


Safin:
who has programmed this game and you for his entertainment


Yamaraj:
It was too hard for the conquerors of other life forms and finally the Earth herself to accept that we weren't special.


Safin:
he might be eg watching us now and laughing his ass off


Private Ryan:
quite possible..thts what the concept of simulation is..


Private Ryan:
so u r telling me tht u dont believe in ogd?


Private Ryan:
sorry, God?


Yamaraj:
Me? I don't have to. If such a being exists, he believes in me, for I am an object of his amusement and joys.


Private Ryan:
not you, yam..i have heard you say tht u are agnostic..


Safin:



Safin:
yamaraj anyway has to be


Safin:
arre anyone knows regex around here


Private Ryan:
but again, being agnostic is like still having a doubt in ur mind tht if thr is a divine entity...


Yamaraj:
In Indian mythology, there is story about a king who was invited by the gods to fight on their side. When he returned after spending only a few years in heaven (other world, dimension maybe), he was hundreds of years late on Earth.


Safin:
so time in heaven is slow... hmm nice


Private Ryan:
it has to be sardaar..after all the apsaraas need time to entertain you..


Yamaraj:
That's quite a scientific thought of credible intelligence at that time.


Yamaraj:
Doesn't that remind you of the General Relativity?


Private Ryan:
Sardaar, btw, u didnt answer my Q...do you believe in god?


Safin:
yes


Private Ryan:
then the point behind this discussion is?


Private Ryan:
okay how do you picturise ur god?


Yamaraj:
It's all there in some religious texts - hidden and misquoted. Then there is this story about Vishnu having a dream in which he is having a dream ...ad infinitum, and each dream is a different world ruled by it's own Brahma. That's simulation and infinity for you in Hindu mythology.


Yamaraj:
Ryan, his goddess actually! Kat


Private Ryan:



Safin:



Safin:
i heard katrina today, she still has a heavy english accent


Safin:
horrible hindi


Private Ryan:
No seriously, if life started as a biological mess of cells and molecules, where does god come into the picture? was he nurturing the cells and molecules in his personal laboratory?


Safin:
he created the hydrogen


Safin:
its simple


Safin:
come to the first molecule.. who created that, thats your question


Private Ryan:
lol..


Safin:
the first molecule of the planet, award goes to... God


Private Ryan:
so who are those tht we prya as jai hanuman, hare rama hare krishna and jesus christ?


Private Ryan:
why dont we pray the first molecule insted?


Yamaraj:
It's actually very simple, Ryan! When you stumble upon a lovely painting lying on ground, you immediately think of a painter - for it cannot exist without it. When consciousness hit us for the first time, we stood there in shock and awe staring at the beauty and mystery this World is.


Yamaraj:
And then we imagined a creator, for without one how could such a lively creation could have come to existence?


Safin:
yama sees his beloved, eg and thanks the creator


Yamaraj:
Surely, life emerged of inanimate molecules. But where did this universe come from?


Yamaraj:
Safin!


Private Ryan:
but then why did it have to be some particualr names tht were listed as gods? evn today, ppl are fighting in the name of their gods and their superiority over the others...


Yamaraj:
That's their stupidity, Ryan.


Private Ryan:
point being, we are only giving a name to something tht is beyond us and something we are not allowed to question..ask ur parents such questions..they'll give u a good thrashing if they cud.. atleast thts the case with me...


Yamaraj:
Do you think this Universe has existed forever, and will continue forever? The problem of infinity strikes again.

If reality is a simulation and if it has an exploit, finding it would make you a god in the hacked simulation. You'd be the Universe.

One way to find an exploit like this would be to construct your own simulated reality - as similar to your reality as you can - and see what kind of exploits its inhabitants find. Then see if those work in your reality as well.

But watch out: once you take over reality, the level of reality above you is very likely to freeze and dissect you, followed by resetting the simulation to find more exploits. You'd want to prepare for that. So, before takeover, find out what your reality is running on, how does their reality work, how can you communicate with them, how could you escape termination (e.g. escape to network, encrypt the details of your exploit and barter for them.) Maybe you could find an exploit for their reality beforehand, letting you leapfrog two levels of reality (but what about the one beyond?)